Dining across the divide: ‘He has a very rosy view of empire and colonialism’

1 week ago 17

Frankie, 28, London

Occupation Aid worker

Voting record Used to vote Labour but not a fan of Starmer (austerity, broken pledges etc) and now votes Green

Amuse bouche Once, watching the MP Ian Lavery on a mechanical bucking bronco at Labour party conference, Frankie noticed Hugh Grant standing next to her. “I asked, ‘Can I have a selfie?’ He was like, ‘Oh god, really?’”

Nathan, 23, London

Occupation Welder fabricator

Voting record Reform in the last election. “I wanted to break up the two-party system. All the time it’s either red or it’s blue – they both get it wrong”

Amuse bouche Nathan once had a bare-knuckle boxing match with a 6ft 4in, 100kg veteran of the sport. It lasted about 10 minutes “but it was the most fun I’d had in a long time”

For starters

Nathan It was an Asian restaurant, or Chinese, to be specific. I’m just a good old parsnips, carrots, potatoes and minced meat kind of guy. But I had something like spicy pork dumplings. They were pretty good.

Frankie As the meal went on, I asked: “How are you so good with chopsticks?” And he was like, “I’m a welder.” He was such good value, even with our initial chat about empire.

The big beef

Frankie I said I work for an organisation that specialises in decolonial methods of development, and his face dropped. He has a very rosy view of empire and colonialism.

Nathan The British empire was fantastic for us. I can see the good and the bad in it, but I’m not going to slap my own side, am I? We stopped a lot of low-level tribal conflicts that were going on in Africa.

Frankie Obviously, we shouldn’t have been there – it was about resource extraction. Empire still exists. I explained that the whole of Africa spends more on debt repayments, which they’ve had to borrow from the IMF to build their infrastructure, than they get in international aid.

Nathan The problem with colonialism was the pride of race aspect, the white man seeing himself as superior, whereas now we understand that Europeans were just ahead technologically and the African countries needed time to catch up. I saw a 1960s film documenting the colonial powers leaving Kenya, and the way they described it was like a parent who abandons their child after they’ve grown up too quickly.

Sharing plate

Nathan We had similar views on the welfare state. I don’t necessarily have answers about how to change it, but I have friends on universal credit. I was on it myself at one point, and it can be a trap – it keeps you in your place.

Frankie Structural inequality isn’t about state benefits; you’ve got multibillionaires controlling the world’s economy – that’s part of the reason for deprivation. The problem is greed, and he agreed. Why did he vote Reform; what makes him think they’re going to tackle greed? He’s got a friend on benefits and has spent most of his life trying to help him into work. Nathan, you are a socialist! You care about the world. He was like, “Yeah, maybe.”

Nathan We both support the underdog. I am a socialist in the sense that, 200 years ago, we had a good tight-knit society. But the Marxist/communist stuff, pure equality – like most absolutes, it never really flourishes. It wouldn’t be fair for people who do put in harder work than others.

For afters

Nathan I do feel proud to be British. Maybe less so nowadays, because we’re losing our international clout. You can’t escape where you’re from, your backstory.

Frankie I’m genuinely ambivalent. My politics form a large part of my identity. I care more about the fact that I’m from Manchester than about the fact that I’m English or British.

Takeaways

Frankie I was actually quite nervous about going, but it was one of the most interesting conversations I’ve had. Everyone needs to do this. And the left needs to have a much more serious conversation about how we engage Reform voters.

Nathan It was a free meal and good conversation – what more could you want? She said she’ll send me some of her socialism. So I said I’d send some imperialism – just good old songs and art from that day and age, the statue of the woman next to the lion, images of dreadnought ships, you know …